Tucson Lets Talk Toilets
February 12, 2008
Post Tags: cast-iron-soil-pipe , low-flow-toilets , Tucson-plumbing
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And Logic
It is more about plumbing and soil pipes than toilets. But the title “Tucson Lets Talk Soil Pipes” isn’t very interesting.
This is not an all inclusive talk about dual flush toilets or low flow toilets or even the super flush toilets that guarantee they can send a diaper straight to the sewer plant in 10 seconds or less. (I’ve seen one in action, they are really cool) The only problem I see is the kids keep trying to find things to throw in them so they can watch them disappear. But I digress.
This is a simple discussion on the recent article and program “at tax payer’s expense” that was suspended due primarily to a good idea that no one seems to have taken the time to think about in a logical manner. DUH!
I’m beginning to think the Simpsons have jumped off the TV screen and are living right here in Tucson. Let’s start with a sample quote from the article itself.
“Only a fraction of the residents complained about having to flush the toilets twice, said the Water Conservation Alliance of Southern Arizona.
But after installing 450 of 1,000 toilets planned for several East Side neighborhoods — in a pilot program that could have been expanded to other areas — the county hasn’t ordered any new toilets since late October. The last few already-ordered toilets are now being installed.
The program’s future is uncertain due to a paradox at the heart of its seeming success.
Wastewater officials who originally had hoped to reduce flows into the sewers now say they’re concerned that the new toilets may reduce flows too much. They’re worried that without enough liquids in sewer lines, solids will settle into the lines, causing corrosion, odor and even sewage backups.”
Buying an Older Home Low Flow Not the Way To Go
I almost made this the title. I throw it in here so existing owners of homes with cast iron plumbing and buyers in the market have something to consider. If you are in the market as a buyer looking for an older home which might have Cast Iron Plumbing then you should think twice before you go out and save some money buying low flow toilets for your home.
A Little Toilet Plumbing History
Emphasis here on “a little” not a novel or a thesis on everything you never wanted to know about toilets and plumbing just a quick note on some basics.
- Most soil pipes used to be cast iron put together by tamping the joints with oakum (hemp rope soaked in oil) and sealed with molten lead.
- Cast iron pipe is not smooth inside. It is rough. At least a lot rougher inside than plastic PVC
- Many places require that the slope of soil pipes be no more than 1/2 inch to the foot. This prevented the water from running away from the solids.
- The sewage didn’t roll down the pipes, it flowed with the water.
- PVC pipe is very smooth inside.
- Solids float and flow much easier in PVC than in cast iron.
Take a rough pipe that has to have enough water in it to float the solids above the rough pipe and keep it moving toward the sewer plant. Put a water source (toilet) at the end of the system to provide enough water to make the system work.
Now years later come back and put a new low flow toilet at the start of this system and what do you think is going to happen?
Where there is newer construction and all the soil pipes are PVC the reverse is true. You don’t need a water source designed for cast iron on a PVC system. You can install a low flow water source and the system will work just fine.
Therefore: Here comes the conclusion. If you were thinking of getting a couple of low flow toilets for Valentine’s Day, LOL and you have cast iron plumbing, get her flowers instead. But make sure they are not a potted plant. See yesterday’s post for more hints.
Low flow toilets and cast iron plumbing are not a good mix. Just one more thing to think about when purchasing an older home or remodeling your own older home.
February 14th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
You know, Dave, I wasn’t looking forward to the low flow toilets to begin with and today discovered that they seem to have irregular shape. They’re neither standard, nor elongated. I mean, the shape is OK and doesn’t bother me one bit. What bothers me is that I haven’t seen any soft seats on the market fitting this shape! My tooshie has been accustomed to soft seats for years and they can’t be taken away from me!
Perhaps I can order them somewhere…
February 15th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
Well first I want to respond to “Concerned.” There are about 100 toilets on the EPA Watersense toilet list. I am sure you can find one that has a shape you like. Also, go to http://www.cuwcc.org, click on products, then on the left click on toilets, and get a copy of the MaP toilet test report. The MaP report has about 800 tested toilets with their flush performance.
Dave, I forwarded you article on low flow toilets and cast iron pipes to the two leading people in water conservation and toilet testing, Bill Gaulley (bill@veritec.org) and John Koeller (koeller@earthlink.net. Bassically they said there is no data to support the claim that you should not install a “low flow toilet” in a home with cast iron piping. What data do you have to support that from a third party testing agency?
Now if the issue was pipe slope, I think there would be more credibility to that.
February 15th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
Kurt,
It is based on the Recent article link above and the suspension of the program by the county because of the possible clogging of the sewer lines and the solids being left in the pipe and causing plugs and destruction of the pipes.
Remember we aren’t talking about current cast iron piping, we are talking about pre 1960 pipes that have been in use for almost 50 years. Not modern day cast iron piping.
The article is the basis. So maybe your authorities should get in touch with the county. They are the ones that suspended the program.
February 15th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
Kurt,
Are you sure you want to give out those email addresses LOL they might be inundated with requests for locations for soft toilet seats.
For me personally, I would never put a low flow toilet on a old cast iron system. I helped install and build them when I was younger and I know how rough those old style pipes are inside.
I also know what kind of mess it creates if you plug one of those pipes and have it back flow. I can think of other ways to conserve water usage if you are living in a home with 50 year old cast iron pipes.
Thanks for doing the research. I’m serious about passing the information to the county because they have suspended the program for those reasons provided.
February 17th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Thanks for the suggestion, Kurt. Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear. I’m buying a new house and I really don’t plan to replace perfectly good brand-new toilets. Just wanna find soft seats fitting this shape. Oh, well, perhaps I’ll just get one for the toilet I use the most even if it’s not a perfect fit.